Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures

I took these pics today. I got these are from Mitch (Diamond Reptiles). They are possible double het for Sunset and Leucistic.

CB'05 female
Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures DBHetF01

Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures DBHetF01

Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures DBHetF011

Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures DBHetF07

CB'06 Male
Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures DBHetM05

Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures DBHetM03

Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures DBHetM08

Wow !!!!Fantastic animal!!!

Hi Randy,

beautiful snakes, both of them!

this animals looks like Naja atra to me, the so called "Formosa or light Phase". Shocked

my two specimen from Taiwan looks exactly like your Animals,
did you count their scales yet?

it needs to have 21 scale rows just ahead of mid-body (Naja atra 19-21) , also the scale rows around the hood could help; Naja kauothia: 27-33 scale rows around hood, Naja atra: 23-29 scale rows around hood (usually 25-27)!

i know there are also Naja kauothia found with an masked shaped hood mark, but i am a bit confused by just looking at the picture.

Wolfgangs Taxonomic comment at his Page: Easily confused with Naja kaouthia. Most easily distinguished by virtue of having lower ventral and subcaudal scale counts, particular when sex is taken into account.

Peter, Wolfgang, any comments?

cheers
Mario

I was also thinking immediatelly after seeing these pictures that they look more as Naja atra as Naja kaouthia. It was said by Randy already, that Mitch didn`t cross-breed these two species together (as Mitch told him), but I am a little bit sceptic. I am seeying cobras he offers every year, but was always wondering what they really are...
I am not saying anything wrong, just curious as Mario... Wink

Thanks Vangelis, Mario

Someone recently told me Mitch crossed kaouthia with atra to get these. I know Mitch pretty well. I'm one of the few people he trusts to come to his house. He told me they are only kaouthia.

I have not done scale counts, but if and when I get good sheds I will and I'll post them for you. The female has a monacle above the Formosa marking, but the male does not.

I'm familiar with WW's site. I've read just about everything on it, saved the .pdf files of elapid papers, and I've printed out his Asian Cobra Systematics page so I'd have it handy. That site has been a great help to me. Thanks WW

My buddy Matt (Victory Reptiles) has what he calls "Golden Naja kaouthia aka Formosa Island cobra" for sale. He's holding her for me to look at in person when I go to his house in a week or two. I'll probably buy her, either way. I'm getting a very orange N. kaouthia male from him also, so if the female is kaouthia, she will go with the male. If she is N. atra, then I have another specie in my collection. Here's the pic he had in his ad.

Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures MattFormosa

Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures MattFormosa

I have to be honest Peter. Hearing people like you and Mario say they look like N. atra you have or have seen, has me wondering. Maybe there's some N. atra in the genetics that Mitch didn't know about. I reckon it's possible.

I had a couple normal Monacled Cobras years ago. I was told they were a cross between atra and kaouthia, but then someone else, the guy that supposedly produced them, told me they were just odd looking kaouthia.

I will definitely do the scale counts as soon as they shed again. I'm anxious to find out for sure.

Mario
be careful with the term "formosa", there are two acceptations:
first the former name of the island of formosa, where Naja atra is found, and
second a line of Naja kaouthia, bred mainly by american herpetoculturists, with some kaouthia-like neck pattern, showing a
mor or less aberrant, irregular mask.
All these Naja kaouthia "formosa" I already saw on pictures were more or less dark colored like typical kaouthias, these bright specimens do really surprise me.
At this time and without further informations, i refuse to believe it's kaouthia.
Unfortunately, I do not have the pholidosis of atra, and I'm not sure if there's any difference in head scalation at all.
You'll have to count body scale rows, Randy, or maybe can Wolfgang tell us a bit more?
Cheers
Peter

Here's a picture of a crossing atra X kaouthia

http://www.printroom.com/ViewAlbumPhoto.asp?userid=EdExotics&album_id=63997&image_id=12

and here the mysterious Naja kaouthia "formosa"

http://www.printroom.com/ViewAlbumPhoto.asp?userid=EdExotics&album_id=63997&image_id=13

Peter

Very hard to be sure.... of course the second people start hybridising things, it becomes pretty much pointless tying to identify them. As far as I can make out, the specimen in the first pic has either 27 or 29 scale rows around the hood, so it could be either atra or kaouthia from that point of view.

There are occasional wild specimens of Naja kaouthia that look rather like the first pic, so I would not eliminate that possibility entirely. A scale count (ventrals, subcaudals) would clarify - either from a shed, or from a high res digital photo of the entire ventral side (front end of snake in a tube is usually OK).

Cheers,

WW

Peter,
Rainforests Exotics is only a couple hours drive from me. I've never actually met him, but we have talked in emails. He's the guy that I believe used to own my female N. oxiana.

WW,
Your pretty smart, or I'm not. I reckon it's both. It never occured to me to tube them and take ventral and sub pics. lol I'll take pics of those two Dbl Hets pictured above, tomorrow when my brother can help me. I may be stopping by Matt's house Wed night. If so, maybe I can get him to help me take pics of the ventrals and subs of the Golden kaouthia aka Formosa Island Cobra that I'm getting from him.

Randy

Randy Ciuros wrote:: My buddy Matt (Victory Reptiles) has what he calls "Golden Naja kaouthia aka Formosa Island cobra" for sale. He's holding her for me to look at in person when I go to his house in a week or two. I'll probably buy her, either way. I'm getting a very orange N. kaouthia male from him also, so if the female is kaouthia, she will go with the male. If she is N. atra, then I have another specie in my collection. Here's the pic he had in his ad.

Hi Randy, i count 25 Scale rows on the animal at this picture... its heard to count, coz you can count only one site of the hood - but if its indeed 25, then it should be N.atra from this point of view, or some intermediate. even if some folks here would kill me for it - but i have to say, this color morphs i seen in some Najas are impressive! i will go and open a new treat to see if we can have a further discussion about this!

cheers
Mario

I did the ventral and sub counts on the CB'05 female and CB'06 male poss dbl hets. pictured at the top of this thread.

The female has 178 ventrals and 47 subs so the females ventrals are further into the range for kaouthia than atra, but still in atra range, but her sub count is just over into the range for kaouthia, but deeper in the atra range.

The male has 171 ventrals and 47 subs so the males ventrals are just barely into the kaouthia range, and deeper into the atra range, and his subs are the same as the female. Deeper into atra range than kaouthia.

From the pics above both hood and mid body counts seem to be in the kaouthia range on both animals, but it's hard to see. Anyone see it differently?

Mario,

The hood count in the pic just above looks like 25 or 26 to me also. That snake is still at Matt's. Maybe I can take ventral and sub pics if he will be home Wed. night.

cool stuff randy - keep us posted.

thanks for the counts man!
more power!

cheers
Mario

Mario,
I did the scale counts, but not the hood, on that Formosa looking cobra from Victory Reptiles, that you said looked to have 25 scale rows on the hood.

Ventrals - 175
Subs - 54
Midbody - 21

Ventrals and midbodys show it could be atra or kaouthia, but the subs count is out of atra range and deep into kaouthia range. And it's a male, not a female like I first thought. Here's a photo I took today.

Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures FormosaMonacledM01

Naja kaouthia Possible Dbl Hets Pictures FormosaMonacledM01

Hi Randy,

thanks for the scale counts!

after seeing the the counts and especially after having a good picture on the neck-region of the snake, my conclusion would be, all information considered that we in deed probably talking about an intermediate snake.

the number of the scales at the hood area is (after my counting) 25- 27 which is clearly out of Naja kaouthia range, please correct me if i am wrong!

the confusion will not end, and i think its pretty pointless to try identification in this particular case.

any comments Wolfgang?

cheers
Mario

N. kaouthia hood scales range from 27-33, and N. atra is 23-27, usually 25-27. If you look at the photos at the top of this thread, you can see several scales on the front side of the hood, that can not be seen from the back of a hooded Cobra.

I will check the hood scale counts on all 3 of the Cobras I posted pics of when they shed, but the last one, in the pic that says Victory Reptiles, I believe is a light kaouthia, with a "mask" hood marking. WW's site describes kaouthia in such a way, and his scale counts are within kaouthia range.

I will consider the other two kaouthia, or possible intergrades, until I do the hood and midbody counts.

hi randy, i was talking about your last picture, from the snake you are about to get..
sorry for the confusion!

cheers
Mario

Yeah Mario, I understood which snake you were talking about. I picked up that snake, the Forest Cobra, the orange lookin Albino Monacled, and a male CB'05 Hopi Rattlesnake from Matt (Victory Reptiles) on Wed. I think I will find he has more than 25-27 hood scales, when I get a good shed. When he hoods up, you can see scales on the front of the hood, so I don't think you can see all the scales from the back, or side. Plus his Subcaudal scale count is out if range for atra.

» Some pictures of my Naja kaouthia from Thailand
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» naja naja *polyocellata* babies! (pictures)
» Naja kaouthia